Deckel FP4A Retrofit

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25 Aug 2023 00:47 #278893 by Teklectic
Hi All!

I have a 1989 Deckel FP4A that I'm trying to retrofit to LinuxCNC, it came with the Hurco Ultimax II originally but is missing the user interface parts, which is one reason for the retrofit. It also uses the Industrial Drives BDS3 motor drives.

Ideally I'd like to reuse the original drives and motors if possible, and that's the start of my troubles. I've spent a lot of time trying to figure out what I have and where I need to go and haven't quite found a system setup like mine.

I managed to the get the BDS3 setup manual from Kollmorgen's website and I've been going over it to try and figure out the motor control schema so I can figure out what kind of Mesa card I'm going to need to get this to work, but it's not super clear on the type of signalling used.

I've gone through and traced the wiring back from the Hurco controller to the drives and found that the motor control appears to be going over a pair of signal wires labelled "Input Reference" that connect to the BDS3 at it's DiffH (Pin 14) and DiffL (Pin 15) connections. In the manual they refer to this as: "The Input Reference Signal (Not to exceed ±8V) is applied to the BDS3 at Pin 14 with respect to 15." And that's about it for information.

From the names of the connections on the board I'm expecting this is some kind of differential signal, but I was expecting ±10V (like in the case of RotarySMPs Maho retrofit), not ±8V, so I think that's already kind of weird, but I'm new at this and not really sure what to expect, maybe ±10V is actually OK (though the manual seems to say it's not) or maybe I need some kind of level-shifter in-between, or maybe I need to do a lot more reading!

I'm hoping someone is familiar with these drives or has some suggestions on what my options might be going forward. My hope for this was that it would just use common ±10V signalling so that I could use the original gear and, if anything happened to fail, I could switch over to something like Lichuan motors and drivers without having to change Mesa cards. Or perhaps the original motors can be refit with a modern driver, but I'm not sure, I'm at that awkward stage where I don't think I know enough to ask the right questions! Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Here's a link to the BDS3 manual for reference: www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/924u81l96a69vng5p...ribmryz6907oytv&dl=0.

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25 Aug 2023 07:04 #278903 by pawel77
Replied by pawel77 on topic Deckel FP4A Retrofit
I do not think that all 3 drives are working after 30 years, so if you want to use motors you need to find another drives for them. 
do not see the motor plate but in Bds3 manual I see that the drive has resolver feedback and motor must be brushless.
I think AMC has in offer such drives with resolver feedback, but how it works or how to tune resolver zero like in 6.9 manual do not know.
after checking motor and resolver you can buy drive at AMC and try it. 

 

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25 Aug 2023 13:43 #278933 by andypugh
Replied by andypugh on topic Deckel FP4A Retrofit

 My hope for this was that it would just use common ±10V signalling so that I could use the original gear
 

You should be able to limit the output voltage in HAL to only use 80% of the 10V range. 
(How to do that would depend on the exact hardware, but there will be a way). 
Alternatively it might be possible to drive through a resistor network, but I am not sure what that would look like for a bipolar differential signal. 
If the drives absolutely must never see more than 8V then it might be worth putting a couple of 8V zener diodes back-to-back at the input terminals. 
But that would hint at a distrust of the software :-)
 

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25 Aug 2023 18:10 #278943 by Teklectic
Replied by Teklectic on topic Deckel FP4A Retrofit
Thanks for the info!

I've attached some shots of the motor plates for reference.

I did some more research after I posted and found that Copley controls also offers some drives for brushless DC motors that use resolver feedback so it looks like my options might be:

AMC DPRANIR-030A800 ~$3300USD
Copley XTL-230-36-R or any Xenus Plus with the -R designator ~$1400USD

Alternately, another thing I just found is that Pico Systems offers a resolver to quadrature converter which, if I understand correctly, should allow me to use a non-resolver drive. If that's the case, used, non-resolver XTL-230-36 units can be had on Ebay for $540USD, as well as I assume other more common drives, which could save me a ton of money on the retrofit. Does that make sense?
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25 Aug 2023 19:46 #278946 by pawel77
Replied by pawel77 on topic Deckel FP4A Retrofit
3300USD

but you do not need 30A peak current, voltage is as well very high for DPRANIR 030A800.
what volatge is supplied to your current drives?
try ebay and/or less power than DPRANIR 030A800. the drives with DC power supply only should be cheaper than these with AC.
converter you can not use because drive needs absolute position to commute properly the motor.. 
AMC drive should have build in resolver encoder converter inside so you will feed mesa card with quadrature impulses. 

if with some cheap AMC drive too difficult, then in my view better to substitute motors with drives complately to new ones. 

you should try of course the drives that you have now, before doing anything else. 


 

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25 Aug 2023 20:01 #278948 by besriworld
Replied by besriworld on topic Deckel FP4A Retrofit
Or just buy new motors and drivers.
$3300 is a high price for one driver. For reference, I bought 3 servo drivers and motors for $2330 with ethercat. 
7.16Nm 
2000rpm 
1.5kw

 

 
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25 Aug 2023 20:09 #278949 by tommylight
Replied by tommylight on topic Deckel FP4A Retrofit

AMC DPRANIR-030A800 ~$3300USD
Copley XTL-230-36-R or any Xenus Plus with the -R designator ~$1400USD


You are aware that for that kind of money you get get complete motor/drives sets, all 3, new, from Yaskawa probably, from Delta or Mitsubishi or Panasonic very probably, from china absolutely, and have some to spare for Mesa and stuff, like Panduit cable channels ? :)

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25 Aug 2023 21:43 #278959 by Teklectic
Replied by Teklectic on topic Deckel FP4A Retrofit
Wow, lots of info, thanks! I'm just getting started in all of this so I don't know nearly as much as I would like to yet, I appreciate all the feedback!

Pawel77:
My plan is definitely to try the existing drives before anything else, I'm working on getting a rotary phase converter installed so I can power it up and take live measurements where possible, but until that's done I'm trying to absorb as much theory as I can :) Although, now that I think of it, I could probably skip the phase converter altogether if I end up replacing the drives, hmm...

The power supply appears to rectify the 208V 3 phase input to a 300VDC output, I might be able to reuse the power supply though that seems like a very high voltage from what I've been reading.
The motors are rated for 210V and the drives appear to be outputting 208V.
The current limit on the drive is 12A per phase.
The reason I was thinking I would need a high peak current is because the motors are rated with a 20.5A peak current, but maybe this is the wrong assumption.
I'll have to learn more about the resolver to quadrature converter, I thought it did produce an absolute output, but I'm probably mistaken.


besriworld:
This has definitely been a consideration, though the motors on the machine seem to have some odd values, they're ~1.3KW at 5100 RPM, I had a look at Lichuan motors as recommended in another thread, but they seem to peak out at 3000RPM which might make the machine a little sluggish and it's already no speed demon, maybe there are better options? This is definitely an avenue I'm looking to learn more about though, it might end up being the most economical path!


tommylight:
I'm definitely not aware of that yet   I'm still just feeling around trying to figure this all out, so I definitely appreciate the info! About the biggest CNC I've worked on so far is a homemade, stepper-driven, CNC router, so this big industrial stuff is all new to me :) I don't have a lot of money to throw at the project, so the more economical the solution the better; when I saw the prices of some of those drives, I almost died 

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25 Aug 2023 23:46 #278967 by Teklectic
Replied by Teklectic on topic Deckel FP4A Retrofit

I bought 3 servo drivers and motors for $2330 with ethercat. 
 

I had a look at Adtech but couldn't find a vendor, where did you find those? Did you order them direct?

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26 Aug 2023 05:52 - 26 Aug 2023 06:01 #278993 by besriworld
Replied by besriworld on topic Deckel FP4A Retrofit
Yes, I bought them directly from the factory witch DHL shipping
Is there a belt drive?

This is from the inside :)

 

 


there is setup software ! 
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Last edit: 26 Aug 2023 06:01 by besriworld.

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