Electronics upgrade, wish to stay with Linuxcnc

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18 Aug 2016 23:21 #79028 by cartec01
So, I have a machine with x, tandem y, z, and A (rotary) axis. It has been working really well with Linuxcnc. one of the uni-polar motor drivers (maybe even 2 of them) burned up on me. I would like to upgrade all the electronics to something better, more modern, and reliable. I think the only thing I have that might be usable in my current controller is a 40v 10a (per manufacturer) power supply. The machine has limit switches on all axis's, and 5 Nema 23 420oz motors. I think the motors are good, and I do not mind rewiring them for Bi-polar operation.
I have been reading and learning as much as I can, but I am so over whelmed by what's out there and what is better and what is junk etc. The manufacturer of my machine has been very unresponsive for outside reasons, and I have been down several weeks now, and was just told it may be several more weeks before they might be able to help. I do not like being bound to one company like I feel I am now for reasons just like this, I am SOL until they can get around to making a new controller which I can buy to run my machine. I spoke to another local company the is reputable, but they seem to be die hard Mach, told me a setup would be around $900, but could not tell me if it would work with Linuxcnc. It would be parallel port, and I think it would work fine, but they could not advise me. Also, taking all the parts included separately from their website came up with a much lower price. This would be digital drivers and I beleive a 48v 12.5a or something power supply.
I am trying to keep this as short and readable as I can, so to get right to the point, what could you more knowledgeable friends recommend for a setup with 5 axis's 2 of which tandem? $900 is ok for me, but it seems a bit high for what it is, but maybe not, and the lack of LinuxCNC support from the company would have me nervous. I think if it was the same apple to apples with a company that was LinuxCNC knowledgeable I would be ok with it.
I have been on this forum a lot, and learned a lot from it, to the point that I have never posted before. For this though I am not finding the answers, or there is so much info I am lost. Also, I do know this is a very loaded question, but hopefully I can at least get some direction...
Thank you so much for your time

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19 Aug 2016 00:39 - 19 Aug 2016 00:42 #79029 by andypugh
Have you considered the Gecko G540? (Only 4 axes)

It sounds like you just need a set of 5 stepper drivers. There are many suppliers, but Gecko and Leadshine seem popular.

Which continent are you on?
Last edit: 19 Aug 2016 00:42 by andypugh.

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19 Aug 2016 03:33 #79034 by cartec01
Thank you Andy. I am in the US in Illinois. I have heard great things about both compannies. With the Gecko, yes the G540 would probably be great if I didn't need the 5th axis. I have looked at there stand alone drivers and really don't understand the difference's with them besides price, plus I would need a break-out board, which I have read you can not do 5 axis's with one parallel port, but I have seen 6 axis BOB boards with Parallel port, mine is 5 with one, so I know it can be done, but hard to follow all the info. Also saw a few BOB's that people spoke highly of but they said the were only for 12v -24v, so I think that would be a problem with my 40v PS? I do not want to say what BOB I have since I do not want to seem like I am bashing the Co that made it, but it is a 4 axis BOB that they somehow added a 5th driver too in a non conventional (no plug for it, just wires solder to different parts of the board, one being soldered to the top of a jumper post) way. I do not believe there is any way for me to reuse it with 5 new drivers.
I know some off you have years and years of experience with the workings of these machines. I can drive it well enough, but the inside workings are new to me. I have had the machine for about 3 years now. I had to change the spindle mount setup because of a bad bearing race so the company sent me an upgraded setup since they had problems with their old setup. Since then, and now out of warranty, I am feeling a bit uncomfortable with the company. The drivers I have are no longer made and really can not be found, on a 3 year old machine. Honestly, 3 weeks ago I had no idea what a driver was, or how any of it worked, but I am now learning as quick as I can. At the same time I would really like to get that machine going again as I have stuff I need to get done with it.

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19 Aug 2016 09:29 #79041 by andypugh

I have looked at there stand alone drivers and really don't understand the difference's with them besides price

You need a driver that is sized for the current your motors can handle and the voltage of your power supply. Possibly with a bit of extra on both for overhead.
So, start with the motors and work back towards the PC.
It is unusual nowadays to use Unipolar motor drivers, you will probably end up re-wiring the motors for Bipolar operation.
How many wires do your motors have? Can you find a spec-sheet from the motor number / code / inspired guesswork?

plus I would need a break-out board, which I have read you can not do 5 axis's with one parallel port

5 axes of step-dir needs 10 output pins. The parallel port has 12 output pins. so can theoretically do 6 axes, but it gets tight if you want to control a spindle or coolant too.

Also saw a few BOB's that people spoke highly of but they said the were only for 12v -24v, so I think that would be a problem with my 40v PS?

No. The BoB only sees the logic power, it is independent from the voltage supplied to the motors.

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19 Aug 2016 12:08 #79050 by tommylight

Also saw a few BOB's that people spoke highly of but they said the were only for 12v -24v, so I think that would be a problem with my 40v PS?

No. The BoB only sees the logic power, it is independent from the voltage supplied to the motors.


Also, new BOB's mostly use 5V, and some of them have a USB port they can be powered from.
Tom

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19 Aug 2016 13:03 - 19 Aug 2016 13:09 #79064 by cartec01
Wow Andy, thank you. I did not know the BOB does not see the voltage from the power supply.

My motors are 8 wire NEMA 23 420oz.
Hybrid design
3a current per phase
200 steps per rev.
as for the data sheet;
Description;........................ Parallel ...........................Series...........................................UniPolar
Holding Torque (N.m +-10%) 300 N.cm Min...... ............300 N.cm Min.......................... 215 N.cm Min
Rated Current (Amps/Phase) .... 4.2 ..................................... 2.1 ........................................3.0
Resistance (ohm/phase +- 10%) 0.8.....................................3.2 ........................................1.6
Inductance(mH/phase +-20%) .....3.8.......................................15.2......................................3.8
Rotor Inertia (g.cm 2) ................ 800........................................800......................................800
[/center]
The company that supplies the motors has a PDF with instructions on how to wire them for Bi-polar operation.

I agree, Uni-polar is out, bi-polar is in. Just not sure if I would be better off with digital or analog.

I am not overly concerned right now about coolant or spindle speed, just spindle on/off. I have a stand alone relay board right now, but one build on to the BOB would be ok.

My E-stop is very important to me, as are the limit switches for keeping the gantry square with the tandem y axis motors.

Of course if I just buy parts, I will have to figure out how to mount them into my enclosure or buy/make a new enclosure.

The $900 setup was in an enclosure and all, however they sell the enclosure alone but say it can only fit 4 drivers, and the drivers spec sheet says max. volts is 45v but the controller has a 48v PS and the sell sheet says the drivers are rated for 50v. The sell sheet and spec sheet are on the same page. By what I have read anyway, it seems these drivers would really be maxed out and voltage should really only be no more then about 80% rated voltage.

Thank again, I really appreciate your helping me. I really like this board and it has always been a huge help. If only it could be so easy for somebody to say "call Acme Co. who is a sponsor on this site and very Linuxcnc knowledgeable, get 5 Acme 5656D drivers and the model 18 BOB. It will work good for you and well supported on this site." :) But I suppose nothing in the CNC world is that simple... LOL
Last edit: 19 Aug 2016 13:09 by cartec01. Reason: trying to clean up the description of the motors

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19 Aug 2016 13:28 #79069 by andypugh

only it could be so easy for somebody to say "call Acme Co. who is a sponsor on this site and very Linuxcnc knowledgeable, get 5 Acme 5656D drivers and the model 18 BOB. It will work good for you and well supported on this site."


I deliberately avoid making specific recommendations, I try hard to give impartial advice[1] and that precludes recommending a specific supplier.

Parallel will run faster than series, so choose a set of 4A drivers (or drivers with a 4A setting) rated at your supply voltage.

You are getting to the point where a parallel port is tight for pins (though more so for output pins than input pins) so you could consider one of the Pico or Mesa systems in lieu of a BoB. These will be especially valuable if you end up with drives with a high microstep ratio.

[1] I might not always succeed, I know a lot more about Mesa hardware than Pico, General Mechatronics etc.

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19 Aug 2016 17:33 #79085 by cartec01
Thank you for the reply Andy and Tom. So, I am looking for at least a 5 Axis BOB, and drivers that but out 4A, or have a 4A setting. I did look into the Mesa Cards, however my machine was doing what I needed it to do and I have no plans to add anything to it. I do plan on getting another machine with more capacity in the near future, and that machine is going to need more options. I'm Sure something like a Mesa 5125 and 7176 would be great, but I am trying to consolidate this process since I feel overwhelmed already.

Right now, I know I have to find 5 drivers and the break-out board, use my spindle relay or one on the new BOB, use my power supply unless advised to change. Figure out how to connect it all and mount it into and enclosure with cooling fans, rewire all my stepper motors for Bi-Polar operation, and figure out how to make LinuxCNC control it all. My current configuration was supplied by my machine manufacturer, so I am pretty sure I'll need to learn how to change some things in LinuxCNC to get the new controller working correctly.... That's a lot for a wood worker to do. :)

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19 Aug 2016 17:36 - 19 Aug 2016 17:51 #79086 by andypugh

My current configuration was supplied by my machine manufacturer, so I am pretty sure I'll need to learn how to change some things in LinuxCNC to get the new controller working correctly.... That's a lot for a wood worker to do. :)


It's likely that nothing in the LinuxCNC config will need to change.
Last edit: 19 Aug 2016 17:51 by andypugh.

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19 Aug 2016 18:16 #79087 by tommylight
cartec01, where are you located?
In US you have a wide choice of drives, in Germany less, but mostly you can order from anywhere to anywhere, so
cnc4pc.com/motion-control/breakout-board...-breakout-board.html
I have an older version of this board, it works perfectly, also has independent settings for pull up or pull down inputs.
www.lamtechnologies.com/
Stepper drives, very nice at a medium price, but indestructible, trust me i have tried !!! Even reversing the power supply polarity will not kill them! But they do need an additional programmer for 28 euro, otherwise you get stuck at 1A for smaller ones, or 2A for bigger ones.
I had 5, of them 4 were 50V/4A type DS1044 and 1 DS1084 good for 160V/4A. I still have the big one and 2 smaller ones, working on a plasma machine for over 4 years.
I could not find it, but a German web store had a discount on them, quite a big one at that, the smaller ones were under 100 euro.
I also have a lot of GECKO's working without issues, but i really hate the multipliers that come in some of them, so i have to open and remove them.
Just my 2 cents on the subject.
Tom

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