7i92 + existing c11 multifunction board - Need validation

More
03 Aug 2020 01:05 #176977 by blitz355
Hello all,
I've been wading through the forums for the answer but haven't quite come up with an answer after searching, and would love the help of one of the many wizards on here (thanks in advance!). I have a new emco lathe compact 8e that I picked up recently that runs on mach3 with this board (c11 rev 9.9):

cnc4pc.com/c11-multifunction-cnc-board.html

I would like to do a retrofit to a 7i92 (since I have latency issues), get it all running and figured out with LinuxCNC then make the jump to PathPilot since that seems to be the recommended route.

From what I gather you need to ensure the pinout of the BoB matches that of the mesa board. I found the files with the pinouts on mesas site and even found a "7i92_C11x2D.pin" file. This leads me to the conclusion that they are indeed compatible.
Mesa pins P1:
IO Connections for P1
Pin#  I/O   Pri. func    Sec. func       Chan      Pin func        Pin Dir

 1     17   IOPort       None           
14     18   IOPort       StepGen         10        Step/Table1     (Out)
 2     19   IOPort       StepGen          6        Step/Table1     (Out)
15     20   IOPort       None           
 3     21   IOPort       StepGen          6        Dir/Table2      (Out)
16     22   IOPort       None           
 4     23   IOPort       StepGen          7        Step/Table1     (Out)
17     24   IOPort       StepGen         11        Step/Table1     (Out)
 5     25   IOPort       StepGen          7        Dir/Table2      (Out)
 6     26   IOPort       StepGen          8        Step/Table1     (Out)
 7     27   IOPort       StepGen          8        Dir/Table2      (Out)
 8     28   IOPort       StepGen          9        Step/Table1     (Out)
 9     29   IOPort       StepGen          9        Dir/Table2      (Out)
10     30   IOPort       QCount           1        Quad-A          (In)
11     31   IOPort       QCount           1        Quad-B          (In)
12     32   IOPort       QCount           1        Quad-IDX        (In)
13     33   IOPort       None

I can't find a similar table to the C11 board.

Questions I'm hoping to have some validations on:
1. Will c11 board function for me with the 7i92 (and version I should get, m vs h)?
2. When I switch to pathpilot will I run into any compatibility issues with this combination?
3. My machine utilizes a vfd for spindle control with 0-10 volts and the relays built onto the c11 - any issues here with the 7i92? I read there could be but it was greek to me what others were saying
4. I could get a 5i25 for the same price so the 7i92 seems the better choice, any thoughts?

Thanks for any and all help you're willing to give. Excited to start dipping my toes into LinuxCNC

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
03 Aug 2020 02:09 #176988 by gerritv
7i92 m vs h is a matter of db25 or 26 pin header for P2 (io0-16). Functionally the boards are the same.

The C11 pinouts are not conveniently listed in their manual but can be discerned from the Mach config info there.

PathPilot has several machine configs that can be used, you will need to verify in the .hal files for 440, 1100 etc which is best suited pin-wise. Look for one with variable speed spindle. The 7i92_C11Gx2D.pin file at least has PWM on pin 14 for spindle, which might be possible to convert to 0-10v? Or does the C11 do that for you? (I don't have a vfd spindle yet)

In the end it is likely that a bit of cable munging might be required. When I configured PP with a 7i92 and PMDX-132 I used jumpers one section at a time to verify the correct mapping. The goal for me was to avoid modifying the PathPilot provided .hal files.
Personally I saw no benefit in getting LinuxCNC running first, I went staright to PathPilot 2.0 (and then upgraded it to current version)

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
03 Aug 2020 08:23 #177014 by tommylight
You need to flash the Mesa 7i92 first with the 7i92_C11Gx2D.bit firmware using "mesaflash" utility, and you will be most probably using P2, not P1.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
03 Aug 2020 14:11 #177039 by blitz355
Hi Tommy,
Thanks for your help! For my understanding why would p2 be more probable to use vs p1?

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
03 Aug 2020 14:21 #177041 by tommylight
Stepgens will start counting from P2, and P2 is the connector that is used first since it is attached to the Mesa board, P1 is on a header.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
03 Aug 2020 14:23 - 03 Aug 2020 14:25 #177042 by blitz355
Hi Gerri,
Thanks for your help and reply.

These PP configs are presumably in the PP OS install somewhere correct?

In regards to the variable speed spindle control and 'converting pin 14 to 0-10v" I'm not sure I quite follow. But the c11 documentation does say the below which leads me to believe that if the 7i92 can create a pwm signal to the proper pin it does the rest for me. Do I understand this correctly?

Built-in Variable Speed Control.
It has an optoisolated analog 0-10VDC output that will convert a PWM signal into an
analog signal that can be used to command a commercial VFD. This analog can be
adjusted using on-board potentiometer, so this board can be adjusted to other voltages.

5.2 Variable Speed Control. (Pin 14)
This function lets you control your spindle with PWM and direction signals, as if it was an
axis motor. It converts the PWM signal into an analog (0-10VDC).
A Variable Frequency Drive or Inverter works by modifying the frequency for AC motors.
Most of these devices with an external analog signal (0-10VDC). That is, if there is 5VDC
coming into through the control signal, the motor will run at 50% of full speed, if there was
10VDC, the motor will run at 100% of full speed. If there is no signal coming out, then the
motor will stop.
This function can also be used on many DC motor controllers by replacing the
potentiometer that controls the speed.


As far as cable munging and jumpers go, you're saying you just connected one set of wires (ie stepper motors) at a time to see if they started turning, then would modify hal until they did? Would it be possible for you to share your hal/ other files that I may learn how you matched the two up? That might help me frame my mind towards the c11 board.

When I go to purchase PP I read else where on the forum this is the one to get:
tormach.com/pathpilot-v20-upgrade-38249.html
It seems though that this one would be the better option (or does it not matter)?
tormach.com/pcnc-1100-pathpilot-upgrade-...re-manual-38706.html
Presumably regardless your type of machine you're able to swap between the mill/lathe interfaces easily?

Thanks again.
Last edit: 03 Aug 2020 14:25 by blitz355.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
03 Aug 2020 14:57 #177047 by gerritv
Certainly a printed manual is preferable.
The PathPilot install provides you with all their machines as a choice, so various lathe and mill models.
I had to make a custom cable to align what PP wanted with what my BOB wanted, not all the signals lined up in the standard 1-1 cable.
The reason for suggesting P2 is that the PP hal files all reference P2, If/when you update PP it overwrites your modified config, so the less editting the better :-)
Re: motor/vfd I think you are correct. This thread seems to give more speicifics one what you need to change to use PWM to Voltage with PP. I can't help with that, my spindle is either on or off :-(
As you can see from the below, the cable pins differ between Tormach machines (the more modern ones use a custom board so do not apply at all). A quick glance at your C11 board lead me to say you need a custom cable to get the pins aligned with what Tormach expects. You would then use the Tormach supplied .bit files, not the one for C11. On the other hand you could edit the PAthPilot .hal file and 'fix' the pinouts that way. For me that was too daunting a task to start with. I might get ambitious later, first want to get my machine running.

440 mill pinout (5i25/7i92)
# 5i25
#
# Configuration pin-out:
#
#    Mill Function   DB25    Mesa             Type             Chan     Function	IO
#
#    Spindle Enable   1      0   IOPort       None
#    Spindle Speed   14      1   IOPort       PWM              0
#    X Step           2      2   IOPort       StepGen          0        Step            (Out)
#    Estop Reset     15      3   IOPort       None                                      (In)
#    X Direction      3      4   IOPort       StepGen          0        Dir             (Out)
#    Charge Pump     16      5   IOPort       StepGen          4        Step            (Out)
#    Y Step           4      6   IOPort       StepGen          1        Step            (Out)
#    Coolant         17      7   IOPort       None                                      (Out)
#    Y Direction      5      8   IOPort       StepGen          1        Dir             (Out)
#    Z Step           6      9   IOPort       StepGen          2        Step            (Out)
#    Z Direction      7     10   IOPort       StepGen          2        Dir             (Out)
#    A Step           8     11   IOPort       StepGen          3        Step            (Out)
#    A Direction      9     12   IOPort       StepGen          3        Dir             (Out)
#    X Limit         10     13   IOPort       None                                      (In)
#    Y Limit         11     14   IOPort       None                                      (In)
#    Z Limit         12     15   IOPort       None                                      (In)
#    Probe In        13     16   IOPort       QCountIdx        0        Idx             (In)

Other mill models:
# 5i25
# Configuration pin-out:
#
#                    IO Connections for P3
#    Mill Function   Pin#    I/O     Pri. func    Sec. func    Chan      Pin func        Pin Dir
#
#    Spindle Speed    1        0     IOPort       StepGen       4        Step/Table1     (Out)
#    Coolant         14        1     IOPort       None                                   (Out)
#    X Direction      2        2     IOPort       StepGen       0        Dir/Table2      (Out)
#    Estop Reset     15        3     IOPort       None                                   (In)
#    X Step           3        4     IOPort       StepGen       0        Step/Table1     (Out)
#    Spindle Dir     16        5     IOPort       None                                   (Out)
#    Y Direction      4        6     IOPort       StepGen       1        Dir/Table2      (Out)
#    Charge Pump     17        7     IOPort       PWM           0        PWM             (Out)
#    Y Step           5        8     IOPort       StepGen       1        Step/Table1     (Out)
#    Z Direction      6        9     IOPort       StepGen       2        Dir/Table2      (Out)
#    Z Step           7       10     IOPort       StepGen       2        Step/Table1     (Out)
#    A Direction      8       11     IOPort       StepGen       3        Dir/Table2      (Out)
#    A Step           9       12     IOPort       StepGen       3        Step/Table1     (Out)
#    X Limit         10       13     IOPort       None                                   (In)
#    Y Limit         11       14     IOPort       None                                   (In)
#    Z Limit         12       15     IOPort       None                                   (In)
#    Probe In        13       16     IOPort       None                                   (In)
#

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
03 Aug 2020 15:58 #177050 by PCW
Note that there are multiple C11 versions and there is a hardware difference between older versions and version G or greater

The early versions used a variable frequency to control the analog out
where version G or greater use a PWM signal

This is why there are two C11 bitfiles, the C11x2D for older C11 versions and the C11Gx2D
for newer C11 versions.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
03 Aug 2020 16:17 #177052 by blitz355
Hi PCW,
Thanks for pointing that out, I think I did notice that. The c11g I found in another thread on here, completely different form factor than my c11, so I would definitely reference/use the c11x2d version. I'll just need to research how to make the spindle work :)

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
03 Aug 2020 16:30 #177054 by blitz355
Hi Gerri,
To clarify what you're saying on a custom cable and referencing the tables below for the 440mill:
the column that says "db25" and column labeled "mesa" would mean that tormach uses pin 14 on their BoB for spindle speed, and mesa expects that to be on pin 1? So the bit file is what makes that decision.

To continue that example for a custom cable (assuming for example c11 used pin 14 for spindle speed, and mesa pin required pin 1) I would simply wire pin 14 from c11 to pin 1 on the mesa side. It might be opposite what I listed.

I feel it would almost be easier to do a 'find and replace in the hal file to make the changes virtually. I don't know how much surgery that would be though.

Already learning alot - thanks for the help gents :)

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Moderators: cncbasher
Time to create page: 0.200 seconds
Powered by Kunena Forum