Deckel FP4 ATC Retrofit
01 May 2023 11:56 #270404
by Walkahz
Deckel FP4 ATC Retrofit was created by Walkahz
Hi All
A few years back a mate and Got possession of an old Deckel FP4 ATC with the TNC355 Control
It came from my workplace who purchased it from the original owner new back in 1990 (and who now worked for the company)
It never worked at my workplace as the batteries went flat and it lost all parameters.
After we aquired it i got some parameters from a german company and spent a few hours reloading them.
This all went to plan however the axis' would not move and go home.
After a bit of mucking around we kind of lost interest and as the machine is an hour or so away from me it is hard to spend time to diagnose and so it has sat in my mates factory for the last 7 or so years.
Now my friend is moving his workshop and has no interest in retaining the deckel. Providing i can move it it will be coming to my shed and i will attempt a control refit.
I would like to retain the original servos and drives for simplicity, i do believe the drives were our original issue a few years back.
I understand that i will need to source some EXE boxes if i go down this path.
What is the best way to test if the drives are viable? i have read about applying a small voltage to them to see if the servo moves.
Alternatively would a new drive similar to www.machdrives.com/bra.html be an option? Only issue i see is that the max voltage is lower than the rated voltage on the servo. Is that a big issue?
Another issue i will have to overcome is the machine is 3 phase 415v however i only have 240v single phase available at home.
With a control refit i will sort out some of the voltage and phase issues however if a VFD is used to power the spindle will there be any other requirement for 3ph power?
The tool changer will be a future challenge i really just want to get the machine making some chips first.
My previous CNC conversion experience is a round column mill conversion using a USB breakout board running Mach3
The issues and glitches I faced with this machine are what has led me down the Linux CNC Path.
Thanks
A few years back a mate and Got possession of an old Deckel FP4 ATC with the TNC355 Control
It came from my workplace who purchased it from the original owner new back in 1990 (and who now worked for the company)
It never worked at my workplace as the batteries went flat and it lost all parameters.
After we aquired it i got some parameters from a german company and spent a few hours reloading them.
This all went to plan however the axis' would not move and go home.
After a bit of mucking around we kind of lost interest and as the machine is an hour or so away from me it is hard to spend time to diagnose and so it has sat in my mates factory for the last 7 or so years.
Now my friend is moving his workshop and has no interest in retaining the deckel. Providing i can move it it will be coming to my shed and i will attempt a control refit.
I would like to retain the original servos and drives for simplicity, i do believe the drives were our original issue a few years back.
I understand that i will need to source some EXE boxes if i go down this path.
What is the best way to test if the drives are viable? i have read about applying a small voltage to them to see if the servo moves.
Alternatively would a new drive similar to www.machdrives.com/bra.html be an option? Only issue i see is that the max voltage is lower than the rated voltage on the servo. Is that a big issue?
Another issue i will have to overcome is the machine is 3 phase 415v however i only have 240v single phase available at home.
With a control refit i will sort out some of the voltage and phase issues however if a VFD is used to power the spindle will there be any other requirement for 3ph power?
The tool changer will be a future challenge i really just want to get the machine making some chips first.
My previous CNC conversion experience is a round column mill conversion using a USB breakout board running Mach3
The issues and glitches I faced with this machine are what has led me down the Linux CNC Path.
Thanks
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17 May 2023 11:58 #271532
by andypugh
Replied by andypugh on topic Deckel FP4 ATC Retrofit
I bought one of those on eBay a while ago, but then the vendor talked me out of it. I think he was right, it would have been a very right fit in my garage.
I suspect that the machdrives drive that you linked probably has more "smarts" than necessary for this retrofit. It seems to be aimed at converting to step-dir control and closes the position loop in the drive. Which is fine, but LinuxCNC offers plenty of other options.
Do you know what voltage the servos originally operated at? It is probably not 500+V DC from the rectified 414AC, so you can probably get a suitable drive voltage with a transformer swap.
(I think I see 176V on the motor plate in the photo, but I am not clear if that is the spindle or a servo)
One option for a DC servo drive is: store.mesanet.com/index.php?route=produc...83_90&product_id=141 (Which can handle two motors per drive)
I suspect that the machdrives drive that you linked probably has more "smarts" than necessary for this retrofit. It seems to be aimed at converting to step-dir control and closes the position loop in the drive. Which is fine, but LinuxCNC offers plenty of other options.
Do you know what voltage the servos originally operated at? It is probably not 500+V DC from the rectified 414AC, so you can probably get a suitable drive voltage with a transformer swap.
(I think I see 176V on the motor plate in the photo, but I am not clear if that is the spindle or a servo)
One option for a DC servo drive is: store.mesanet.com/index.php?route=produc...83_90&product_id=141 (Which can handle two motors per drive)
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17 May 2023 17:32 #271549
by spumco
Replied by spumco on topic Deckel FP4 ATC Retrofit
Looks like that Siemens servo is a 176VDC, 7.6A thing. No idea what feedback it uses (couldn't find a datasheet)
An additional drive option:
shop.cncdrive.com/index.php?productID=366
No affiliation, just a thought.
Any of the drives mentioned top out at around 160-165V, so there will be a slight top speed penalty compared to the OEM drives.
Try to find a datasheet/manual for the OEM drives and see how they are controlled (-10v to +10v?). That would be easiest to deal with rather than trying to match aftermarket drives.
Regarding voltage...
You need to buy a 240->400V transformer (common for European-sourced machines in the US), or plan on gutting all the electrical stuff (servos, spindle, control - everything).
Otherwise you'll wind up with some sort of Franken-monster with a 400V spindle (which needs a transformer) and 240V drives.
Quickest way to do this is
An additional drive option:
shop.cncdrive.com/index.php?productID=366
No affiliation, just a thought.
Any of the drives mentioned top out at around 160-165V, so there will be a slight top speed penalty compared to the OEM drives.
Try to find a datasheet/manual for the OEM drives and see how they are controlled (-10v to +10v?). That would be easiest to deal with rather than trying to match aftermarket drives.
Regarding voltage...
You need to buy a 240->400V transformer (common for European-sourced machines in the US), or plan on gutting all the electrical stuff (servos, spindle, control - everything).
Otherwise you'll wind up with some sort of Franken-monster with a 400V spindle (which needs a transformer) and 240V drives.
Quickest way to do this is
- 240->400 transformer
- OEM drives
- OEM spindle & drive
- OEM coolant pump (if present)
- Mesa analog-servo board
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28 Jul 2023 21:41 #276488
by Walkahz
Replied by Walkahz on topic Deckel FP4 ATC Retrofit
Sorry for the delayed response been waiting for the machine to arrive.
Current servos are 176v DC Siemens units.
Current Bosch drive receives 165v 3 phase AC and I assume rectifies to DC.
I believe the drives are damaged in some way so will not be retaining them. But if I am to keep the current servos I will be needing a 160ish volt DC power supply capable of 2000w or so which isn't cheap from what I'm finding.
Started to strip down the machine last night to trace wiring as the diagram I've got is for a non ATC model.
At this stage the tool changer won't be used as it's a fairly complex piece of equipment.
There is a PLC on the current control a Heidenhain pl 300. Does anyone know if it is possible to control this PLC as a standalone unit?
Current servos are 176v DC Siemens units.
Current Bosch drive receives 165v 3 phase AC and I assume rectifies to DC.
I believe the drives are damaged in some way so will not be retaining them. But if I am to keep the current servos I will be needing a 160ish volt DC power supply capable of 2000w or so which isn't cheap from what I'm finding.
Started to strip down the machine last night to trace wiring as the diagram I've got is for a non ATC model.
At this stage the tool changer won't be used as it's a fairly complex piece of equipment.
There is a PLC on the current control a Heidenhain pl 300. Does anyone know if it is possible to control this PLC as a standalone unit?
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28 Jul 2023 21:48 #276489
by Walkahz
Replied by Walkahz on topic Deckel FP4 ATC Retrofit
Sorry for the delayed response been waiting for the machine to arrive.
Current servos are 176v DC Siemens units.
Current Bosch drive receives 165v 3 phase AC and I assume rectifies to DC.
I believe the drives are damaged in some way so will not be retaining them. But if I am to keep the current servos I will be needing a 160ish volt DC power supply capable of 2000w or so which isn't cheap from what I'm finding.
Started to strip down the machine last night to trace wiring as the diagram I've got is for a non ATC model.
At this stage the tool changer won't be used as it's a fairly complex piece of equipment.
There is a PLC on the current control a Heidenhain pl 300. Does anyone know if it is possible to control this PLC as a standalone unit?
Current servos are 176v DC Siemens units.
Current Bosch drive receives 165v 3 phase AC and I assume rectifies to DC.
I believe the drives are damaged in some way so will not be retaining them. But if I am to keep the current servos I will be needing a 160ish volt DC power supply capable of 2000w or so which isn't cheap from what I'm finding.
Started to strip down the machine last night to trace wiring as the diagram I've got is for a non ATC model.
At this stage the tool changer won't be used as it's a fairly complex piece of equipment.
There is a PLC on the current control a Heidenhain pl 300. Does anyone know if it is possible to control this PLC as a standalone unit?
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28 Jul 2023 22:14 #276491
by tommylight
Replied by tommylight on topic Deckel FP4 ATC Retrofit
Are the motors brushed DC or 3 phase AC?
Also, 165V AC after rectification is 232V DC, so a 160V DC drive will burn to a crisp if wired to existing transformer with 3x165V AC.
In general, 100V AC is never ever the same as 100V DC, not even for a light bulb.
Mesa has drives that can do 2200W at 3 phase and work with a wide range of voltage up to 400V, i think, so having a look at them does not hurt
store.mesanet.com/index.php?route=produc...oduct&product_id=149
They are for 3 phase brushless DC permanent magnet motors.
Also, 165V AC after rectification is 232V DC, so a 160V DC drive will burn to a crisp if wired to existing transformer with 3x165V AC.
In general, 100V AC is never ever the same as 100V DC, not even for a light bulb.
Mesa has drives that can do 2200W at 3 phase and work with a wide range of voltage up to 400V, i think, so having a look at them does not hurt
store.mesanet.com/index.php?route=produc...oduct&product_id=149
They are for 3 phase brushless DC permanent magnet motors.
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28 Jul 2023 22:35 #276495
by andypugh
OK, it needs to be suitably sized and rated caps and rectifier, but it's not that hard to do.
Both my machines run on simple rectified mains power.
Replied by andypugh on topic Deckel FP4 ATC Retrofit
If you have the transformer then all you need is a bridge rectifier and some capacitors.I believe the drives are damaged in some way so will not be retaining them. But if I am to keep the current servos I will be needing a 160ish volt DC power supply capable of 2000w or so which isn't cheap from what I'm finding.
OK, it needs to be suitably sized and rated caps and rectifier, but it's not that hard to do.
Both my machines run on simple rectified mains power.
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29 Jul 2023 11:52 - 29 Jul 2023 11:57 #276522
by Walkahz
Replied by Walkahz on topic Deckel FP4 ATC Retrofit
They are brushed DC motors.
I have attached a photo of the transformer that goes to the current Bosch transistor drives.
I will look into the bridge rectifier option.
I have attached a photo of the transformer that goes to the current Bosch transistor drives.
I will look into the bridge rectifier option.
Last edit: 29 Jul 2023 11:57 by Walkahz. Reason: Added image
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01 Aug 2023 14:06 #276697
by andypugh
Replied by andypugh on topic Deckel FP4 ATC Retrofit
Does it go straight to the drives, or via smoothing caps?
I was going to suggest store.mesanet.com/index.php?route=produc...83_90&product_id=141 for drives but I would expect the 165V on the transformer plate to be Vrms not Vpeak, and that would be 230V once rectified into capacitors.
I was going to suggest store.mesanet.com/index.php?route=produc...83_90&product_id=141 for drives but I would expect the 165V on the transformer plate to be Vrms not Vpeak, and that would be 230V once rectified into capacitors.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Walkahz
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01 Aug 2023 16:14 #276711
by Henk
Replied by Henk on topic Deckel FP4 ATC Retrofit
We have a FP5 with the same drive. It was also faulty when I retrofitted the machine. One axis had blown transistors on the power stage.
Changed the transistors and it has been working ever since, almost every day for 5 years now.
I have the schematics for the drive and I can help with basic fault finding.
Changed the transistors and it has been working ever since, almost every day for 5 years now.
I have the schematics for the drive and I can help with basic fault finding.
The following user(s) said Thank You: tommylight, Walkahz
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