Deckel FP4 ATC Retrofit

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02 Aug 2023 10:55 #276771 by Walkahz
Replied by Walkahz on topic Deckel FP4 ATC Retrofit
goes straight to the drives. There is a large capacitor inside the drive however.

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02 Aug 2023 11:15 #276773 by Walkahz
Replied by Walkahz on topic Deckel FP4 ATC Retrofit

We have a FP5 with the same drive. It was also faulty when I retrofitted the machine. One axis had blown transistors on the power stage.

Changed the transistors and it has been working ever since, almost every day for 5 years now. 

I have the schematics for the drive and I can help with basic fault finding.

Thanks for the offer.
i found the documentation for the drives and have had a bit of a look through.
Still trying to decide what the best way to go is, at the same time as retrofitting the control i am also trying to get the machine to run off single phase supply. the spindle and accessories are easy enough to do with VFD's being easy to get these days but the drive  transformer will not allow this same approach which is why i am considering if upgrading to modern AC servo's is the most straightforward path. I figure i can resell the existing components to recoup some of the cost.

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22 Aug 2023 06:41 #278674 by Walkahz
Replied by Walkahz on topic Deckel FP4 ATC Retrofit
Been a while since my last post. I have gotten stuck in now the machine has been delivered and have been removing all the components that will be unused and tracing wiring so i can reverse engineer systems.

This project has gotten more complex due to my want to keep the machine to single phase only power which has meant removing most of the existing wiring and electronics that were mostly 3 phase. There were multiple transformers in the control box converting 380v 3ph to many different voltages both single and multi phase. These have all been removed.The 7 contactors that controlled the spindle motor have been removed and replaced by a VFD. This has been tested and functions well apart from letting the "smoke" out of a module that was wired into the motor... I believe a surge protector of some sort (E6 on the diagram). I removed these and tested motor again and it functions as it should.

I have purchased a PC and touch screen and am mounting them to the original control cabinet so i dont have to make anything from scratch.
I have ordered a Mesa 7I96S as my main control board with a 7i84D for additional I/O. 
At this stage i am likely going to replace the servo motors with AC ones but am keeping my options open here.
Toolchanger will be removed as it is very slow and overly complex. for my initial needs manual tool change will be ok and i may eventually make a new Tool change if i see need.
 
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22 Aug 2023 07:29 - 22 Aug 2023 09:45 #278676 by pawel77
Replied by pawel77 on topic Deckel FP4 ATC Retrofit
these are nice DC servos.
if they have tacho feedback buy a simple DC drive like this www.semis-bg.eu/servoe_d.html (I have tested it on Parker Peerless DC motor and it works well) and try to move them, but before uncouple the motor from the machine.  
cheers
Last edit: 22 Aug 2023 09:45 by pawel77.

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22 Aug 2023 10:05 #278685 by tommylight
Replied by tommylight on topic Deckel FP4 ATC Retrofit
@Walkahz
Nice smoke effects ! :)
It looks like a high frequency protection, would be nice to replace that as it helps suppressing interference's.
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@Pawel77
Those are DC for brushed motors, the OP has a 3 phase one, and they are for maximum of 135V while the OP has probably 200V stuff.

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22 Aug 2023 12:33 #278694 by pawel77
Replied by pawel77 on topic Deckel FP4 ATC Retrofit
@Tommy
maybe I am wrong but in my understanding these are DC brushed servo motor and drives ar DC too.
regarding maximum voltage you can ask at SEMIS if they can adopt the power supply side and maximum output voltage. I remember they wanted adopt for me something. 

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22 Aug 2023 13:15 - 22 Aug 2023 13:26 #278698 by tommylight
Replied by tommylight on topic Deckel FP4 ATC Retrofit
Brushed DC motors are motors with brushes with simple + and - to drive them, you connect any DC voltage at them and they spin with no electronics.
3 phase brushless require electronics or 3 phase power source, if you connect any DC voltage to them they do not spin, they just burn slowly or quickly, depending on the voltage/current applied.
They are not interchangeable, a drive for brushed does not work for brushless motor, and vice versa.
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I do understand the confusion, the 3 phase brushless motors or synchronous are very often named as "brushless DC" and that is wrong, but it is to differentiate from 3 phase induction/asynchronous motors.
Again, not the same thing as that makes 3 types in general use, brushed, brushless synchronous and brushes asynchronous. The last one is the original Tesla motor, and not the Elon Musk one, Elon did not invent anything.
Last edit: 22 Aug 2023 13:26 by tommylight. Reason: typo

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23 Aug 2023 03:58 #278744 by Walkahz
Replied by Walkahz on topic Deckel FP4 ATC Retrofit
Thanks for the link Pawel
These could work nicely for my Servo motors as they are brushed DC.
Just looking at the spec sheet do I read correctly that you feed them 110v AC and they send out as DC for the motors?

Do you know how much they cost?

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23 Aug 2023 06:27 #278748 by pawel77
Replied by pawel77 on topic Deckel FP4 ATC Retrofit

Just looking at the spec sheet do I read correctly that you feed them 110v AC and they send out as DC for the motors?

yes.
regarding how to power the drive disscuss with them directly, they will advice you. send them motor plate too. 

Do you know how much they cost?

do not remember, depending on the version but it was competitive price. 

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07 Sep 2023 06:03 #280167 by Walkahz
Replied by Walkahz on topic Deckel FP4 ATC Retrofit
Still Chipping Away. I investigated the drives Pawel has suggested and they could work. Cost isnt crazy but it is similar pricing to 3 brand new lichuan AC servos with drives which is the way i am leaning at this point.

Have got my touch screen mounted to my existing panel (some slight mods required) The calibration is way out for the touch so would love some guidance on how to best correct this. 

Electronics box is almost completely stripped. Due to the smaller footprint of modern drives and equipment i am downsizing this by cutting it in half and i will weld the end back on. The other photos shows the pile of wiring and contactors which has been removed. Some of this will be repurposed in the refit but will end up with a lot of surplus.

My Mesa Cards arrived yesterday so i look forwards to getting these connected to the PC and Linux CNC.  I didnt realise but do the  7I96S and 7i84D require an External 5v supply? What is the best way to obtain this through a power supply? 

This forum seems overly difficult to attach images. i keep running into max file size issues. What is the limit 1.6mb per post or per image?
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