What would you do ? Not the TV show!

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26 Jul 2020 17:53 #175939 by Mike_Eitel
You can see it from your customers point too.
How long do you need. Versus the supplier.
Substract and that is the time from now on he has to find a "covid adjusted" solution by keeping all the former defind contract items.
Mike
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26 Jul 2020 20:29 #175963 by Grotius
Tom,

Are you able to provide some pictures of the project to get an idea of the size?

If the installation is running and profits 10k a day. Why not pay 50k for a high end solution?

Hopely for the client, the seller can come quickly by plane.
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26 Jul 2020 21:32 #175978 by tommylight

Are you able to provide some pictures of the project to get an idea of the size?

No pictures, they do not allow it saying "trade secret" ! WTF????

If the installation is running and profits 10k a day. Why not pay 50k for a high end solution?

Leme try to explain the mentality around here with some examples:
- Waiter's here are paid 300 Euro/month, all of them own the latest iPhone costing 900 to 1200 E. Till 7 months ago the salary was 200 euro.
- People that own and drive very expensive cars costing over 40 to 70K go to gas stations to put 5 Euro of gas in it, and put brakes that cost 7 euros on those cars, only after the existing ones are completely shot.
--
Personally, there are over 12 industrial machines here that i asked 700 to 6500E to fix, they are rusting and collecting dust for several years, including a 1998 Trumpf 4KW laser with automatic pallets, that got burned to a crisp by a 19 year old who told them he could install and set it up (not fix, it was bought in Germany in working condition), and is now used as feeding ground for mice.
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I think i have some pictures of an Amada punch press with Fanuc controls that i was maintaining and servicing and programming some 9 years back, until the owner threw 10 euros at me for an hour of manual programming, so i quit. Two years later the monitor on it died, so normally i refused to fix it, so he found some other guy to do that and the result was the same as above, literally burned to a crisp. I will find the pictures and upload them for sure.
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It is very hard to understand the mentality around here, although in general we are very nice and very friendly people, some issues still remain....
This got to long... Thank you all for the support.
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26 Jul 2020 23:47 #175992 by rodw
If the client is making your job hard now ( no photos), then you must ask:
1. What is your core business?
2. How easy is the customer going to be to work with when the job gets harder?
3. Why make his problem your problem?

I have often found if you step out of your core business, you often get burnt.
If your core business is fixing machine tools, should you be fixing production lines?
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27 Jul 2020 06:19 #176009 by Aciera
Really, they shell out 350k and don't have the sense to send somebody to take it apart in a way so they can actually put it back together? Then they find a local guy and expect him to fix it for them without taking pictures? Either they are really naive or really smart.
I bet the "seller" would be quite happy to find out the buyer had brought somebody else in to put it back together.
Just imagine the controller doesn't work, how many mesa cards are you going to need to get that thing running on LinuxCNC?
I wouldn't touch that thing unless I was REALLY desperate for work.
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27 Jul 2020 09:30 #176032 by tommylight

If the client is making your job hard now ( no photos), then you must ask:
1. What is your core business?
2. How easy is the customer going to be to work with when the job gets harder?
3. Why make his problem your problem?

I am dealing with two of them, the third is in US.
One of them wants me to manage the whole factory and fix the machine, the other (younger) one wants the machine working and insists it is an easy job !

I have often found if you step out of your core business, you often get burnt.
If your core business is fixing machine tools, should you be fixing production lines?

That is very true, but i also maintain some production lines, so not stepping out much.
Thank you.

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27 Jul 2020 09:38 #176033 by tommylight

Either they are really naive or really smart.

Naive. They did not bother to find me before purchasing the machine, that would have save a decent chunk of money and time.

I bet the "seller" would be quite happy to find out the buyer had brought somebody else in to put it back together.

They would be, they already calculated over 30K for that, so that becomes "easy money" for them, and no more warranty.

Just imagine the controller doesn't work, how many mesa cards are you going to need to get that thing running on LinuxCNC?

Roughly 50 to 100 of them, and that still seems low.

I wouldn't touch that thing unless I was REALLY desperate for work.

At the moment i am desperate for money, not for work. I invested everything ( as i usually do ) on the machines i have built and decided not to sell them, so i am in a bit of a pickle, but not nearly desperate enough to go that route.
Thank you.

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27 Jul 2020 10:06 - 27 Jul 2020 11:09 #176038 by RotarySMP
What would I do? I'm an aircraft engineer, and if someone brought a junk plane to me, and had the attitude that it should be easy to fix, I'd politely decline due to too many commitments, and recommend them to my competition, in the hope that the screw over my competitor :)

Where are you? What is your relationship with the buyers? Do you trust them to pay you weekly, on time, and not dick you around?

"the other (younger) one wants the machine working and insists it is an easy job !"



That is a warning right there! Unrealistic expectations.

Do they have the necessary current cash flow to cover your wages + parts for a couple of months?

Sounds to me like the buyers are already completely screwed, and you are their only hope. They don't have $350K in value, that junk pile is basically worthless as it stands. Therefore you can set this up as a zero risk prospect for you. As has already been said, you invoice time weekly, and down tools if they don't pay. If you have real concerns about their cash flow, put them on cash up front.

Take no formal responsiblity for the project management, but they have to source any parts necessary that you spec, and if they bauk, you walk.

If they play along, and you get this junk pile working for them, there should be a lucrative service contract out of it.

Or you wait, and buy the whole line from the bankrupcy auction for cents on the dollar, and set up you own factory :)

At the moment i am desperate for money, not for work. I invested everything ( as i usually do ) on the machines i have built and decided not to sell them, so i am in a bit of a pickle, but not nearly desperate enough to go that route.

Tommy, you are one of the most generous persons with your time and expertise. Please set up a Patreon acount, and let the community start paying you for your help.
Last edit: 27 Jul 2020 11:09 by RotarySMP.
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27 Jul 2020 10:14 #176042 by RotarySMP

Went and had a look at it for nearly 2 hours, this is the result:
- machine in pretty good condition,
- plenty of yanked cables and wires, most of them not labelled,
- a huge number of disconnected connectors, not labelled,
- a huge number of detached sensors, wiring connected,
- a huge number of sensors on several pots, no wiring, no labelling,
- 20 to 30 posts with several IR sensors each, disconnected, used as fence around the machine,
- several leaky hydraulic fittings,
- a lot of damage during transport, some bent some crimped and some cut off metal shielded cables,
- no documentation


Send them an invioce for those two hours to get a feel for their attitude to your expertise.
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27 Jul 2020 15:56 #176093 by tommylight

What would I do? I'm an aircraft engineer, and if someone brought a junk plane to me, and had the attitude that it should be easy to fix, I'd politely decline due to too many commitments, and recommend them to my competition, in the hope that the screw over my competitor :)

Damn, that is a nice idea ! :)

Where are you? What is your relationship with the buyers? Do you trust them to pay you weekly, on time, and not dick you around?

I am siting on a big table in my shop ! :)
No relationship. As for trust, i am owed over 45K Euro in the last 20 years, so trust is gone. Last 9 years i am owed only about 6K, the rest i chose to forget. The worst of it was 10 years ago when my father and my brother were ill, i had to borrow 36K in 5 days for my bro, and i paid almost all of it, almost as one who gave me 3k at that time still refuses to take that back, insisting that it was for saving someone so that does not go back. And that is correct, here when we help someone in need, we never expect that back. Non the less, i will continue to insist in paying him back.

"the other (younger) one wants the machine working and insists it is an easy job !"

That is a warning right there! Unrealistic expectations.

True, it raised all kinds of alarms.

Do they have the necessary current cash flow to cover your wages + parts for a couple of months?

They should, they also have another line for fence production working, and i am cheap, but not nearly as cheap as some other charlatans that destroyed every machine they put their hands on.
I guestimated around 5 to 7k for time and work only, have not told them yet, i would love to have their faces on camera when i tell them.

Sounds to me like the buyers are already completely screwed, and you are their only hope. They don't have $350K in value, that junk pile is basically worthless as it stands. Therefore you can set this up as a zero risk prospect for you. As has already been said, you invoice time weekly, and down tools if they don't pay. If you have real concerns about their cash flow, put them on cash up front.

Take no formal responsiblity for the project management, but they have to source any parts necessary that you spec, and if they bauk, you walk.

Yes they are, and yes i am. It is pitiful to say that, but it is the truth. There is another person, a very good friend of mine, who actually knows electronics better than me, but he does not do service at all, and does now work with machines. He is a professor at a faculty in Prishtina. 1.7 Million people, only 2 who know electronics, and some 700 who claim they do but have no efin clue. I tested all of them in the last 20 years! But there are some TV repair shops who know their job, so that is a bonus as that is also electronics.
I never take responsibility for the machines, but still i got coerced into building a big table for a welding robot after i finished the robot and my job was done. Took 9 days for the robot, over 3 months for the table. Got 900 Euro for all of it. Never again. NEVER!!!

If they play along, and you get this junk pile working for them, there should be a lucrative service contract out of it.

Not happening here, never. I would love to do that, it would make my life much easier. And theirs, too.

Or you wait, and buy the whole line from the bankrupcy auction for cents on the dollar, and set up you own factory :)

No such thing here. The old factories from before the war got sold like that here, there are shopping centres in their place now. All got bought for cheap, sold for scrap and made huge profits. Miserable. There was a car parts one with 2200 workers where my dad worked for over 30 years, bicycle factory, industrial led acid batteries, sugar, beer, etc, etc. Roughly 25K families lived from them, sold for scrap.

Tommy, you are one of the most generous persons with your time and expertise. Please set up a Patreon acount, and let the community start paying you for your help.

I would but my consciousness does not let me. Again, i am a stubborn P.O.Sh.
Thank you very much for the advice and kind words,.... and some very nice videos ! :)

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